Comments on: National Covenanting: A Realistic Solution for the Economy?

By: Michael LeFebvre

Michael LeFebvre — Sat, 12 Nov 2011 00:34:46 +0000

Tim, thanks for adding that link to “Grace Period.” There is a payday-advance outfit just a mile or two down the road from me, and every time I pass it I grieve at how such operations take advantage of people in their desperation. It is the kind of situation that got Nehemiah pretty upset in Neh. 5. It’s neat to see the model that ministry is setting before us with a challenge to replicate it elsewhere.

By: timbloedow

timbloedow — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:20:24 +0000

Until National Covenanting is appreciated, here’s another idea that Chuck Colson mentioned today that looks like it’s taking place in or around Pittsburgh: http://www.graceperiod.org/jointhemovement/green_mile/index.html . Providing poor people with an alternative to usurious payday loan outfits.

By: Kurt And-Shelley Fiech

Kurt And-Shelley Fiech — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:55:14 +0000

Dave Ramsey is good on dealing with personal debt but is lacking in dealing with business debt or investments. Read here: http://bit.ly/DaveRamseyShortcomings

By: Pastor Brad Johnston

Pastor Brad Johnston — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:29:14 +0000

Thanks for the thought-provoking presentation, Michael. I read your article a couple of weeks ago, but was reminded of it again as I listened to Dave Ramsey, a guy from a very different tradition, apply God’s Word to the present financial situation.
Take a listen here, especially at 00:37:25. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKohvK4dqW0&feature=player_embedded#!
“When people decide to do things God’s ways, it unjoints everything, and it can cause revival. What if because the church was the place where people went for [a solution to financial hopelessness] What if because of that the church earned the right to speak into people lives, because we learned to love them well. I think that if enough of us did that at the same time, that revival could break out. “

By: Tim Bloedow

Tim Bloedow — Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:56:34 +0000

http://reformedcovenanter.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/thomas-hobart-no-national-covenanting-no-national-revival/?mid=5178

Thomas Hobart: no national covenanting, no national revival

[N]ational covenanting is the fruit of genuine revival of national religion, and that in Christian lands where national covenanting is not observed there is no evidence that national religion has been really revived. Some, we are aware, speak slightingly of covenanting times, but were you to blot out from the history of Zion all the accounts of covenanting times, you would blot out from her history all the accounts of genuine revival times [...]

Thomas Hobart, National covenanting a national privilege: a sermon, preached in the Rev. J. Chancellor’s church, Belfast (Perth, 1874), p. 14.

By: Tim Bloedow

Tim Bloedow — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:20:54 +0000

Great thought-provoking piece, Pastor LeFebvre. More than anything else I think economics/money reveals the condition of our hearts, so a call to a National Covenant could be a powerful Gospel call in the current environment. Others say that America is not as far down the road as Europe, and Europe arguably had an even greater legacy of Christendom than America, so it has fallen much further, yet without repentance, so barring God’s gracious intervention, America could still fall much further before things get better. On a couple of your secondary points. 1) I too am a reader of Gary North and the first thing that came to mind as you were listing the problems with people’s more recent economic behaviour was what North always summarizes as the desire people have to get something for nothing. I have a hard time labelling that an unintentional sin (Lev. 4:13). The social effects are the result of every individuals’ decisions to choose greed and envy over righteous thinking and decisions. 2) I’ve been thinking about your point re. the lack of unity around something like this due to denominationalism, but in a different context. I’ve been delving into Canadian history to understand the Christian impact. We became a nation about a century after America. The impact of Christianity in the West was already in the decline. Much Presbyterian influence was not Gospel-oriented. Methodism was very prominent. We had some Anglican leaders who tried to preserve Christian Establishment principles in Canada, but such attempts caused so much conflict because other denominations would accept another denomination as speaking for the whole church, so Establishment was seen as a sectarian perspective. So as Christians today look back in our history for Christian influence to commend, many Canadian Christians look back to those such as George Brown, a Scottish Presbyterian, but a committed (classical) liberal who strongly opposed Establishment principles, instead promoting equality of religious influence by separating church/state relations, equal access to education through a gov’t financed non-sectarian model (in this, he joined forces with the prominent Methodist clergyman, Ryerson. Better historians than me have noted the unitarian influence on Ryerson from the U.S.) But in studying these things, I can’t help but think that if Establishment is the Biblical approach – and National Covenanting too – then the fact that we can’t advance these principles in a denominational context is a picture to us of the evil of denominationalism, and evidence that denominationalism is bringing God’s judgment onto a backslidden church. And if that’s the case, then to advance these other Biblical principles, if we’re serious about them, we maybe have to think about a more direct way of speaking out against denominationalism and in a more consistent and public way, calling the Church back to unity. It seems so many of us have become so accustomed to denominationalism that we don’t think much of it anymore, and it is just part of the background as we go about our religious business.

By: Michael LeFebvre

Michael LeFebvre — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 21:44:28 +0000

Thanks for the economics link, Kurt. And on your first comment: I agree wholeheartedly. There is, as you state, no biblical basis for the church’s division into “branches.” In fact, in the Testimony of the RP Church, we explicitly confess that the division of the church into denominations is ultimately due to sin (RPT 25.14). I did not intend to imply that such divisions are part of God’s moral will, simply that (within his providence) it is the way things are. Thanks for highlighting that important point.

By: Kurt And-Shelley Fiech

Kurt And-Shelley Fiech — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:50:13 +0000

“I’m not smart enough on economics to evaluate how well political and institutional leaders are doing (or which ones are right where there are heated disagreements).” Then you and I need to become “smart enough on economics” in order to help with a solution. This “smart enough” means understanding economics – God’s way – as revealed in Scripture. Someone has been studying this for decades. We may want to start here: Capitalism & the Bible http://www.garynorth.com/public/department57.cfm

By: Kurt And-Shelley Fiech

Kurt And-Shelley Fiech — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:38:37 +0000

I have to take exception to your very first declaration: “Different branches of the church often have certain doctrines that are special to them. In his providence, God gives one heritage of his people historical experiences that lead them to sharpen their development of one doctrine, while another branch of the church (through its historical experiences) are compelled to wrestle with other doctrines.” There is no such Scriptural evidence for this that I see. There has always been ONE people of God. ONE body of Christ. There is no evidence of any “branches” of God’s people. Can you support your declaration thru Scripture?